Curse

frojack · Jul 09, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14

I think this would be a good change. Currently it only affects the max health or a spirit. While this is good for spirits that lose hp for their function (Wanderlust, Shelter, Union, etc.), I don't think it's enough to help the ritualist. It would be a far more attractive incentive to using the attribute. I currently have far too many builds that completely ignore it. Even those with spirits.

I shouldn't need to rely upon Soul Twisting or Ritual Lord and to a lesser extent, Weapon of Quickening to keep up with the pace of the game (alliance battles/pve), or remain redundant for a crucial period of time (arena based pvp) because all my spirits are recharging and I am currently useless (in an admittedly spirit heavy build).

Other alternatives would be to blanket reduce the recharge of spirits. All those that we're 60 seconds become 45. and some that we're 45 become 30.

Candidates for the 30 second recharge...

Pain:
Your main artillery attack unit for communing. Gets killed quite often. Not as resilient as it's closest counterpart, Bloodsong due to no inherent self preservation. Is impossible to control, just like all attack spirits. Generally just provides annoyance to the opposition till they kill it.

Restoration:
Currently this is just a really poor resurrection tool. Compared to Lively Was Naomei, this falls very short. The max hp this restores is pretty low (around 50%) compared to Naomei, and it is prone to destruction before it's time. Additionally, it appears bugged. The description reads ''....in the area..." but it's range is far smaller than that. This just compounds the problem further. It might as well be a single person res with a huge recharge.

Life:
A pretty inconsistent healer. The healing is generally random. There is no telling if the team needs 150 hp when it goes off. Plus, just like every other spirit, it is prone to death before it's due. Resulting in a less than optimal heal. A 30 second recharge wouldn't affect this too much. but it would allow you to heal every 33 seconds instead of every 48 and also allow you to keep a spirit in the vicinity at all times for all those spells that require the presence of one. Spirit Light Weapon being a worryingly obvious example.

Additional points:

-Since Ritualist single heals are generally inferior to that of the Monk, why not allow some better control over the party wide healing? A 45 second recharge on Recuperation would help the team greatly, but not so much that party members would be un-killable. Life could function as some what awkward, inferior Heal Party.

-Preservation could do with better AI. Would it be so bad for it to heal the party member in it's range with the least health? It's every 4 seconds anyways. Not really over powered compared to the healing ability of a Monk. Plus it is vulnerable to destruction.

What do you guys think?

Spoony · Jul 09, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Id say, If anet would make spirits have more ai, then they would need monsters to have a better AI. For example, you wont be able to do corner tricks, etc. And That, unfortunetely, is not the thing that everyone wants.

Terra Xin · Jul 09, 2006, 12:02 PM // 12:02

oo no a preservation spirit with better AI. The thing heals for over 1000 health in its duration... at the cost of 5 energy and automatic casting, that's as good as you're gonna get it.

Anyway, if you're a spirit spammer, then your default elites would be soul twisting or ritual lord, theres no reason to change that. Choosing any other wouldnt make you a spirit spammer, and, there are many elites you could utilise instead...

I think the increased HP of a spirit is enough... I reckon anyway.

BahamutKaiser · Jul 09, 2006, 07:50 PM // 19:50

I think some more effective skills to heal your spirits would be a good addition, there are only so many ways to heal your spirit, and they are mostly too weak to keep them alive, it would be nice if there were some skills which reduce damage taken by a spirit and heal them more effectively and directly, then you would be able to maintain them for longer periods of time.

I find it somewhat unbalanced that many spirits die in a matter of seconds in battle, they may provide protective effects on several teammates, but even on one teammate, they can be depleated in seconds, but that is beside the fact that they can be obliderated directly just as quickly. When a Monk dedicates to protecting a unit, he can reduce the damage that unit takes and heal them almost indefinetly, Binding Rituals need more efficiency in order to sustain even one player against heavy assault.

Binding Rituals may be cheap, but they take time to prepare, and are immobile, costing an extra skill to bring them along, it would be much better if you could actually keep these spirits alive with maintenance skills, and push players to either kill the Spirit or the Ritualist sustaining it, simular to the need to kill a monk who is sustaining his team, instead of hacking down the spirits protection in a matter of seconds.

And I pretty much dislike all skills with massive recast times, such skills are often easy to counter, and fall behind frequent skills in effectiveness, there are very few skills that are so powerful that they need to have 45 seconds and 60 second recast times, I think many should be rebalanced for active gameplay, or better counters can be made.

nugzta · Jul 09, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Id prefer if spawning power gives 2 - 3% faster casting spirits/animate creatures for each rank.

frojack · Jul 09, 2006, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spoony

Id say, If anet would make spirits have more ai, then they would need monsters to have a better AI. For example, you wont be able to do corner tricks, etc. And That, unfortunetely, is not the thing that everyone wants.

That is not entirely true. Firstly spirits attack at random. If you only have 1 target, you get the performance you wished for. If there are more than 1, you'll be lucky if even 2 you create go after the same target. Spirit damage may ignore armour, but it's small unless pointed at the right place.
Your main assumption about the AI of all the monsters needing attention for a change like this isn't well grounded. Pet's attack who you tell them to. They may be hard to break off, but they will attack the target you do.

I basically want them to have the simple intelligence of a dog(or whatever pet you've got). Attack who I attack. If they don't break off, so be it.
Do you know how infuriating it is to spend all that energy on Disenchantment only for it to target the ranger and NOT the monk you created it for? Dissonance perhaps. Or perhaps ShadowSong attacking the monk instead of the warrior currently splitting your skull.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

oo no a preservation spirit with better AI. The thing heals for over 1000 health in its duration... at the cost of 5 energy and automatic casting, that's as good as you're gonna get it.

Anyway, if you're a spirit spammer, then your default elites would be soul twisting or ritual lord, theres no reason to change that. Choosing any other wouldnt make you a spirit spammer, and, there are many elites you could utilise instead...

I think the increased HP of a spirit is enough... I reckon anyway.

Oh come on. 122 hp every 4 seconds. Not exactly earth shattering is it? 4 seconds is enough to kill any soft target with the right spike. If you manage to barely survive those critical 4 seconds, you can guarantee you'll be dead in the next. This is essentially a flashy version of Healing Spring. 122 healing every 4 seconds instead of 63 healing every 2. Oh and Healing Spring, you might notice, heals everyone in it's area. Not just 1 dude. Doesn't seem so special now doe's it?

Oh and by the way, the whole point of this whole thread is to allow for more interesting builds outside of the spirit spammer. Spirits are the core, the foundation of the ritualist. However currently, the only viable use for them is if you rely on certain elites to make them workable.

The current thinking is this; You either use another elite with more or less no spirits at all, or you take out the gimmick stick and throw spirits around like a rich man with too much money and no friends. There should be a reasonable middle ground.

Quote:

@ BahamutKaiser

Some very astute points. Spirits do tend to return to the mists very quickly. Either under fire or because of their function. I'm not too bothered by this though. Their relatively quick deaths aren't so bad if you consider balancing issues. Shelter, Union, and Displacement(when not bugged to hell) are pretty powerful abilities. In fact I'd go as far as to say they could mitigate more damage than any monk ever could (especially in large groups). Their life-span is a very delicate issue. It could quite easily become over-powered. Especially since Ritual Lord and Soul Twisting aren't going away.
More options for spirit healing would be nice though. Spirit Boon Strike is kinda' pathetic considering Channelling isn't really about spirits. Signet of creation is ok but comes with a hefty price.

Quote:

@ nugzta

Are you referring to the creation of the spirits? If so, I can understand that it does take a little while to get the longer ones going ( you do get quality animation though. especially with an item spell on you

), but I would argue that this is far less important than the recharge.

Their kinda' like Meteor Shower when you think about it

. All that time to prepare and all the time it takes to regenerate, only for a few not so guaranteed knockdowns, and the crappy kind of rock show that doesn't feature a drummer and a set of guitars.